More important than election, socialized medicine!
Question:
> And ya it does strike a chord in my gall when they are
Ken: Please translate "strike a chord in my gall" into English.
Response:
> Wowsa I just don’t get it……[ain't that the truth] >I thought making lots and lots of money was a GOOD trhing, at least if > U**** is doing it. You are always preaching about how financially > successful U**** is, implying that makes the products good. But when > pharmas make $$, they are bad. Hmmmm..
Ken is sliming away–yet again–from the question Carole posed. In his brain, USTANKA is to be applauded for racking up profits ("mentioned on CBS Marketwatch!" etc.), but pharmaceutical companies are to condemned for doing precisely the same thing.
Response:
RE: Re: More important than election, socialized medicine! >Lisa S. Quinn >** ** **Remember National Celibacy Day on November 2nd!! NO Bush and NO >Dick!!** ** **
- So, you are advocating flushing the country down the toilet? Er, John and John??? – <snerk> – – Origin: The Wild Wild West * 503-623-0185
Response:
i don’t think individual doctors are guilty of anything worse than ignorance when things go wrong. however, i do believe pharmas are in it for the money –and given a choice—would choose treatment over cure. the scientist that started centocor (remicade discoverer) was a good man—but had to sell out to johnson and johnson in order to meet demand. j&j are milking this product for all it’s worth. example; when my son needed his first infusion, he was in very bad shape. j&j ran the local infusion center and wouldn’t administer remicade w/o insurance company approval. instead of waiting, i offered to pay—in cash, if necessary–for it. they refused and said if not paid byinsurance, they wouldn’t give him the infusion. they wanted the gravy train, not the "one shot" deal. my conclusion is that most individuals are altruistic to some extent—few corporations are–even fewer multinational giants are. the solution is probably impossible, but the problem is evident. mel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->rnews.com>… > I believe the drug industry is the biggest money making industry in the > states.It’s not onheard of salaries being in the 40 million mark. Thats >like > 80 times more than the president of the united states makes on his salary. > Thats just way too much …..Sure they should be allowed to make money and > lots of it but there should be some kind of limit to the madness. > Why would one ever want to find a cure for something when there is that >kind > of money avaialble to just treat it.? > Plus why do the meds always have to be toxic? > example…We have heard time and time again that Vitamin E thins the > blood…..and it does! So whats the reasoning of using rat person to thins > one’s blood instead of vitamin E? I just do not know why…but its not > because vitamin E is toxic. > If one develops cancer because of remicade then they get to make a whole > lot more money off of you and it shouldn’t be just about making tons of > money. >If you are worried about dying from taking the medications then just >don’t take them! Save your money! >Nobody forces you to purchase meds. If you feel that drug companies >are not doing enough to cure disease then why don’t you go into the >medical business yourself? If you know so much about medicine you >obviously could make more money than those that don’t. >But if you did come up with a wonder drug to cure Crohns I bet you >dollars to donuts that the FDA would not approve it. The FDA doesn’t >want to make people healthy, they want more control over business. >Plus if your pill did make it to market then some a$$hole trial lawyer >would sue you claiming that your pill made his client sick. Or the >government would force you to give up your patent to the pill and >allow another drug company to make it, with no credit to you. And the >Medicare administration would make you create patient discount cards >so they could give your pill to old people for free thru their new >program. >Dysbiosis in Medicine: >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3005/medical.html >"Just because you do not take an interest in politics, >doesn’t mean politics won’t take an interest in you." >– PERICLES (430 BC)
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I assume people in the Crohn’s-Colitis forum are concerned about > medical advancement. You may want to look into an organization > called: Americans for Free Choice in Medicine. > Here is an example press release they did: > More appropriate for a recurring topic in this group is this one: > http://www.afcm.org/pr-vitaminpolice.html > NEWS RELEASE > March 18, 2004 > Take Your Vitamins, or Else > NEWPORT BEACH, CALIFORNIA ? "Get ready for the vitamin police," warns > Richard E. Ralston, executive director of Americans for Free Choice in > Medicine (AFCM), referring to the Food and Drug Administration’s > proposed new regulations. > "Today the FDA adds billions of dollars to the cost of drugs," Ralston > availability of new drugs for years. The first principle of medicine > is "do no harm." > But the cost of keeping drugs off the market, and adding to the cost > of existing drugs, is extremely harmful to our health. The FDA now > wants to extend these controls to vitamins and other dietary > supplements." > AFCM opposes socialized medicine on principle and favors free market > ideas, such as Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) and tax reform. > "According to the FDA, Americans cannot be counted on to take vitamins > or dietary supplements without poisoning or killing themselves," > Ralston wrote.
I agree. Lots of good naturopathic treatments cannot advertise themselves as medication, or publish their findings, because that would give the FDA grounds to jump into their business. There is some good research done by naturopaths, all hidden in back-alleys like a shameful secret. There are also scams by bad naturopaths, because in a black market it is easy to sheer the sheep. The scams give the FDA grounds to move in to protect the public. Few people know this, but Consumer Reports has been warned by the FDA against giving out medical advice, after they began publishing booklets on valid food supplements a few years back. It seems the government is afraid of competition from private sources.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->i was replying to the post before ken’s but it was not there to quote—can >you > answer the questions i asked. btw—i don;t think your explanation of no > cures > found is that airtight. i don’t think they’re searching for the > medication > that eliminates the need for more medication. it wouldn’t be a good > business > model—and as presently constituted, that’s what counts the most. > mel > That’s the same argument forward by people that insist that doctors are > keeping us sick, because if we weren’t sick, they wouldn’t have customers > either. I’m hoping you can see the fundamental absurdity in that argument, > if only by reducing it to the concept of individual doctors. People are very > quick to assign a Satan-esque amorality to anything resembling "Big > Business," as if the moment someone attaches "Inc." to their business’ name > they’ve lost all sense of ethics, decency, or – hell – even the general > concept of medicine.
I agree James; everybody wants to demonize the pharmaceuticals, but they still want them to come up with cures. Lucky for those of us with illnesses, the Phams keep doing their research. I have information I have collected on at least two new medications not mentioned in this newsgroup, and a few more that are in development. My goal is to make myself part of the solution by finding employment with a pharm that seems to be on track with their research. Unfortunately since the US is cracking down on pharms, I may have to move to England, Germany, or Japan to find a pharm that is allowed to still do product development. http://www.afcm.org/healthcare2024.html Notes from the future…. "One bright spot has been the relatively modest increase in the cost of prescription drugs since the failure of six of the top ten American pharmaceutical companies. Europe and China now manufacture 90% of our prescription drugs. Since patents of American drug companies were eliminated, foreign companies have dominated the market. They were only held up by the need to wait for American companies to first pay the high cost of obtaining FDA approval for each new drug. "
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Wowsa I just don’t get it……You complain of the high prices of meds, >> and yet you figure yearly 40 million dollar salaries, not including >> stock options and bonuses are okay? Sorry but I find that a bit >> excessive. > Excessive relative to *what*? CEO’s make in the millions regularly in > *any* industry. Does it just gall you that CEOs make humongous amounts of > money? That’s what being a CEO is about; doing your job so amazingly well > that you’re given the reins of one of corporate America’s financial > juggarnauts; and for keeping it successful, you’re compensated > appropriately. > Perhaps because medicine is expensive, these people should make less, and > contribute the difference to other people’s healthcare, is what you’re > saying? Not for nothing, but please, go stick your head in an oven. > When your dolling out 40 million dollar salaries do you not think that all > that money contributes to the reason why > meds are so expensive?And ya it does strike a chord in my gall when they > are making that kinda money off of sick people.
40 mil. is peanuts compared to the amount brought in by any single large company, much less the industry as a whole. (Merck brings in, on average, 9 billion dollars a year. That’s equal, give or take a couple million, to Microsoft.) A single Merck subsidiary brings in an additional 1.8 billion/year. No, I don’t think a CEO’s salary brings up the general cost of medicines. And you know what? I don’t give a flying shit if it "strikes a chord in your gall" that they make that money off of sick people. Doctors make their money off of sick people too. "Making money off sick people" is what the healthcare industry *is*; do not make it sound like a pack of vultures circling over some poor hapless fellow on the cusp of death. > Hey look i don’t do drugs for my crohn’s and haven’t for over 9 years, but > i can see all the complaining about the high prices on here which ends up > stopping a lot of people from getting access to these expensive drugs > …people they were supposedly intended for in the first place.
You seem to be confused. The drugs were developed to help people; they were produced for a profit. No one is pouring billions of dollars into RnD * just out of the goodness of their hearts*. No one has any intention of giving these medicines out cheap just because the people they were intended to help have trouble affording them. >Sorry but i always thought the reason behind healthcare was to help the >sick…not to just make some super rich.
You seem to be confused. No, allow me to amend that; you seem to be an idiot. I’m entirely fed up with people insisting that BigPharma and the healthcare industry are these depraved, evil, out-to-get-rich-and-screw-everbody maniacs. Also, I’m fed up with people insisting that the healthcare industry *should* be some massive charity organization out to help all mankind. Wrap your mind around this, you babbling fool; pharmaceuticals, doctors, therapists; they’re all just *people*. They’re out to make a profit, and they’re out to help people; all concerns are tempered against one another. They are not Some Big Evil, nor are they Jesus With A Stethoscope – they’re *people*; as ethical, charitable, kind, stupid, greedy, negligent, flawed, concerned as *any* people. They are not there to provide you with medicine *just because* you’re sick. They’re not there to steal from the pockets of the poor, trading out Health in tiny increments, only as their business model allows. They’re *people*. Face it, or as I suggested earlier, stick your head in an oven.
Response:
> Wowsa I just don’t get it……You complain of the high prices of meds, > and yet you figure yearly 40 million dollar salaries, not including stock > options and bonuses are okay? Sorry but I find that a bit excessive.
Excessive relative to *what*? CEO’s make in the millions regularly in *any* industry. Does it just gall you that CEOs make humongous amounts of money? That’s what being a CEO is about; doing your job so amazingly well that you’re given the reins of one of corporate America’s financial juggarnauts; and for keeping it successful, you’re compensated appropriately. Perhaps because medicine is expensive, these people should make less, and contribute the difference to other people’s healthcare, is what you’re saying? Not for nothing, but please, go stick your head in an oven.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Wowsa I just don’t get it……You complain of the high prices of meds, > and yet you figure yearly 40 million dollar salaries, not including stock > options and bonuses are okay? Sorry but I find that a bit excessive. > Excessive relative to *what*? CEO’s make in the millions regularly in > *any* industry. Does it just gall you that CEOs make humongous amounts of > money? That’s what being a CEO is about; doing your job so amazingly well > that you’re given the reins of one of corporate America’s financial > juggarnauts; and for keeping it successful, you’re compensated > appropriately. > Perhaps because medicine is expensive, these people should make less, and > contribute the difference to other people’s healthcare, is what you’re > saying? Not for nothing, but please, go stick your head in an oven.
When your dolling out 40 million dollar salaries do you not think that all that money contributes to the reason why meds are so expensive?And ya it does strike a chord in my gall when they are making that kinda money off of sick people. Hey look i don’t do drugs for my crohn’s and haven’t for over 9 years, but i can see all the complaining about the high prices on here which ends up stopping a lot of people from getting access to these expensive drugs …people they were supposedly intended for in the first place.Sorry but i always thought the reason behind healthcare was to help the sick…not to just make some super rich.
Response:
Wowsa I just don’t get it……You complain of the high prices of meds, and yet you figure yearly 40 million dollar salaries, not including stock options and bonuses are okay? Sorry but I find that a bit excessive.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I thought making lots and lots of money was a GOOD trhing, at least if > U**** is doing it. You are always preaching about how financially > successful U**** is, implying that makes the products good. But when > pharmas make $$, they are bad. Hmmmm.. > (and no I don’t own any pharma stock, or work for one…) >I believe the drug industry is the biggest money making industry in the >states.It’s not onheard of salaries being in the 40 million mark. Thats >like >80 times more than the president of the united states makes on his salary. >Thats just way too much …..Sure they should be allowed to make money and >lots of it but there should be some kind of limit to the madness. >Why would one ever want to find a cure for something when there is that >kind >of money avaialble to just treat it.? >Plus why do the meds always have to be toxic? >example…We have heard time and time again that Vitamin E thins the >blood…..and it does! So whats the reasoning of using rat person to thins >one’s blood instead of vitamin E? I just do not know why…but its not >because vitamin E is toxic. >If one develops cancer because of remicade then they get to make a whole >lot more money off of you and it shouldn’t be just about making tons of >money. >>I assume people in the Crohn’s-Colitis forum are concerned about >> medical advancement. You may want to look into an organization >> called: Americans for Free Choice in Medicine. >> Here is an example press release they did: >> Free Markets: The Key to New Drugs at a Reasonable Price >> by Richard E. Ralston >> September 19, 2003 >> Government control of prescriptions drugs and their prices would blow >> up the pipeline of the new medications that have significantly >> improved the lives of millions of Americans. >> The U.S. pharmaceutical industry spends $22 billion a year on research >> and development of new drugs. Unlike government-funded research-which >> can be spent to develop drugs that no one needs or that duplicate >> existing drugs-pharmaceutical companies must get results. In order to >> recover their investment, their new drugs actually have to work. The >> continuing flow of new drugs that these firms produce is the best hope >> we have to treat and cure our ailments. >> Senator Edward Kennedy is a longtime advocate of government-run health >> care and he has serious long-term plans for government intervention in >> the medical profession. Kennedy, who co-sponsored the HMO Act of 1973, >> which instituted subsidies for HMOs, is the person most responsible >> for the Senate’s Medicare prescription drug plan and he has made it >> clear that drug subsidies for seniors are the first step toward >> government control of medicine. Kennedy’s stated priority for the next >> step in this process is government control of prescription drug >> prices. >> In addition to discovering and testing drugs, pharmaceutical companies >> also face enormous administrative costs to obtain FDA approval to put >> drugs on the market. Hospitals and physicians who dispense drugs also >> absorb the high cost of complying with a dizzying array of government >> regulations. If drug firms know that a drug’s price is established by >> the state-not by patients-there is no interest in discovering, testing >> and creating new drugs. >> Drug prices have gone up because demand for better drugs has gone up. >> Drugs that provide astonishing new relief or a cure are priced high >> enough to recover development costs and provide capital for more >> effective research. >> Yes, scientists working hard to develop new drugs make a lot of >> money-and they should. They deserve it. A free market in >> pharmaceuticals is the only way to insure the flow of new, >> breakthrough drugs and competitive pricing. >> An authentically free market means other companies-anywhere in the >> world-are free to develop drugs that are equally or more effective, or >> competitors who produce similar drugs that are almost as effective at >> a lower price. >> Controls on drugs, doctors, and prices will distort the drug market >> from the science stage to the pricing stage. Congress must face the >> fact that its laws cannot create a single new drug and that government >> force will only restrict and inhibit the scientist seeking new >> medicines. >> Advocates of government-controlled medicine, such as Senator Kennedy, >> assume that any new drug brought to market-at whatever cost-must be >> provided by those who produce it to anyone who wants it at a price >> determined by government decree. According to this view, the >> government, and only the government, should supply each of our most >> basic needs. >> The result will be a nation of people dependent on government handouts >> for all essential requirements of life-hardly the republic of free, >> prosperous individuals the Founding Fathers envisioned. But even the >> pathetic prospect of the American people lining up for government >> drugs will not reverse the laws of cause and effect: great >> minds-including those working in science, medicine and pharmaceutical >> research-will not work under coercion and neither President Bush nor >> Senator Kennedy nor their state-sponsored prescription drug coverage >> will insure a continuing development of effective new medication. >> Americans who cherish their freedom, particularly seniors who treasure >> their independence, must reply to the threat of government >> prescription drugs with the only appropriate response: Leave my >> drugs-which means those who produce them-alone! >> Richard E. Ralston is Executive Director of Americans for Free Choice >> in Medicine.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I believe the drug industry is the biggest money making industry in the > states.It’s not onheard of salaries being in the 40 million mark. Thats like > 80 times more than the president of the united states makes on his salary. > Thats just way too much …..Sure they should be allowed to make money and > lots of it but there should be some kind of limit to the madness. > Why would one ever want to find a cure for something when there is that kind > of money avaialble to just treat it.? > Plus why do the meds always have to be toxic? > example…We have heard time and time again that Vitamin E thins the > blood…..and it does! So whats the reasoning of using rat person to thins > one’s blood instead of vitamin E? I just do not know why…but its not > because vitamin E is toxic. > If one develops cancer because of remicade then they get to make a whole > lot more money off of you and it shouldn’t be just about making tons of > money.
If you are worried about dying from taking the medications then just don’t take them! Save your money! Nobody forces you to purchase meds. If you feel that drug companies are not doing enough to cure disease then why don’t you go into the medical business yourself? If you know so much about medicine you obviously could make more money than those that don’t. But if you did come up with a wonder drug to cure Crohns I bet you dollars to donuts that the FDA would not approve it. The FDA doesn’t want to make people healthy, they want more control over business. Plus if your pill did make it to market then some a$$hole trial lawyer would sue you claiming that your pill made his client sick. Or the government would force you to give up your patent to the pill and allow another drug company to make it, with no credit to you. And the Medicare administration would make you create patient discount cards so they could give your pill to old people for free thru their new program. Dysbiosis in Medicine: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3005/medical.html "Just because you do not take an interest in politics, doesn’t mean politics won’t take an interest in you." — PERICLES (430 BC)
Response:
> I assume people in the Crohn’s-Colitis forum are concerned about > medical advancement. You may want to look into an organization > called: Americans for Free Choice in Medicine. > Here is an example press release they did:
More appropriate for a recurring topic in this group is this one: http://www.afcm.org/pr-vitaminpolice.html NEWS RELEASE March 18, 2004 Take Your Vitamins, or Else NEWPORT BEACH, CALIFORNIA
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